Chatty AF 221: Magic Knight Rayearth Rewatchalong – Part 1 (WITH TRANSCRIPT)

CAITLIN: Hi, everyone. Caitlin Moore here. I am so excited to be doing the Magic Knight Rayearth podcast. However, unfortunately we had some technical issues with the first episode, and that discussion has been lost. Sorry about that. We really tried to make it work, but we just couldn’t.

I think one of the key things we discussed, though, that carries through to the second episode is the role of girlhood, talking about how the younger female characters are depicted as very innocent whereas Alcione is like heavy makeup, big tits, skimpy outfit.

And that is kinda the biggest part of the conversation that we had, that I just summed up very, very quickly, but that’s kind of the thrust of it. Thank you for listening, and I really hope you enjoy the show. It’s been a long time coming. Thanks.

[Introductory musical theme]

CAITLIN: Hi and welcome to Chatty AF: The Anime Feminist Podcast. Today we are talking about the second half of the first half of Magic Knight Rayearth, episodes 11 to 20. I’m Caitlin. I am one of the managing editors of Anime Feminist. And today I have with me returning guest Megan and new to this watchalong but perhaps—er, rewatchalong, I should say—perhaps someday returning guest Colleen.

MEGAN: Hi! It’s Megan, once again, regular manga blogger, [Chuckles] seemingly regular appearances on this podcast, and not necessarily feeling the best after what we just watched.

CAITLIN: [crosstalk] It’s a bummer.

COLLEEN: And I am Colleen from Colleen’s Manga Recs on YouTube. Also not feeling super great [Chuckles] after what we just watched!

CAITLIN: Let’s just start right off with talking a little bit about the sub and the dub. So, we talked about most of the notable cast members last episode. I don’t think there’s really anyone else of note who popped up this time.

MEGAN: Oh, no, there’s one, at least for me and probably anyone else who grew up watching cartoons on Fox Kids, because Caldina’s voice actress, Lenore Zann, is also Rogue from the ‘90s X-Men and now currently X-Men ‘97.

CAITLIN: Oh. Did she do a proper Southern accent?

MEGAN: I mean, I’m not Southern. I can’t judge her accuracy, but she’s basically more or less doing the Rogue voice. And it’s just nice to hear. She did do a few other anime dubs, but this is probably one of her most prominent roles.

CAITLIN: Yeah, back in the day, when they would translate Osaka dialect as Southern accents.

MEGAN: I mean, I guess it’s better than going a Brooklyn accent, but that’s neither here nor there.

CAITLIN: Honestly, I like the Brooklyn accent. I think it’s a more accurate comparison.

MEGAN: The only other notable difference is how the sub and the dub approach Inouva. In English he’s very gravelly, but if you listen to him in Japanese, he’s got this very measured, handsome voice. It’s basically your standard bishie voice. And I kind of wonder why they went with that in the dub.

COLLEEN: So, I actually did end up watching the dub for, like, the last seven episodes, and I thought Inouva’s voice was so funny. It just didn’t seem right for him. And there was one—

CAITLIN: [crosstalk] I’m gonna have to check this out.

COLLEEN: There was one line that was so funny to me, the one episode where he’s disguised as Sera and trying to infiltrate their group and gets Ferio that way. There is this one really funny line delivery where he’s going from the, like, [Assumes a high-pitched feminine voice] “Hello, I’m Sera! And thank you for trying my medicinal herbs!” [Returns to normal voice] and then all of a sudden he goes, [Assumes a creaky, dramatic voice] “How would you like my…?” [Laughs]

[Laughter]

COLLEEN: It’s just so funny going from that to the [Assumes a creaky voice] “Yeah!” [Chuckles]

MEGAN: It also doesn’t help he’s not… whoever voiced him is not one of the better actors in the dub. He’s the one who falls most prey to the “I have to stick to the lip flaps at all costs.”

CAITLIN: I did remember to pay attention to Emeraude this episode. Ah, Anime News Network seems to be having some issues. I was going to look up his actor. But anyway, I did remember to pay attention specifically to Megumi Ogata playing Emeraude this run. And it’s really interesting because she sounds like a very typical… not squeaky but kinda high-voiced anime girl for a while, you know, the type.

MEGAN: [In a high-pitched feminine voice] Ah, Zagato!

CAITLIN: She’s playing a specific character type.

MEGAN: Yeah, it’s an unusually femme performance for an actress who even at that point was known for portraying lots of boys and butcher individuals.

CAITLIN: But then, when they kill Zagato and she screams, I was like, oh, right! That’s Megumi Ogata. She’s really good. She’s really good, even when she’s doing that kinda typical squeaky voice. Not squeaky. It’s not really squeaky, but, you know, when she is doing that typical higher-register feminine anime voice.

COLLEEN: The little fluttery angel voice.

CAITLIN: Mm, “fluttery” is a good descriptor. So, not a whole lot to say about the sub and dub this time around. We’ve got Akio Otsuka now. I can’t remember which one he voiced because Anime News Network is down.

MEGAN: I think he was Windham?

CAITLIN: Here we go. Oh, there we go. Now it’s up.

MEGAN: He was definitely one of the Rune Gods, which is fitting.

CAITLIN: Yes.

COLLEEN: The other thing about the dub that I thought was semi-funny was the guy who was playing Zagato kind of went for a Batman voice, before the Batman voice was really a thing. But it was so like [Assumes a breathy, gravelly voice] “I’m Batman!” [Chuckles]

MEGAN: And it is kind of him trying to do what his Japanese counterpart was doing, but that’s Lex Lang. You don’t hear him much in dubs anymore outside of the new Lupin, because he’s Goemon.

CAITLIN: [crosstalk] Oh, Lex Lang!

COLLEEN: Is he doing the Batman voice in Lupin? [Chuckles]

MEGAN: No! No, Goemon does not sound like that! But now that you’ve said that, I’m never gonna be able to unhear it.

COLLEEN: It’s so Batman! [Chuckles]

CAITLIN: Okay, wait, wait. So, for Zagato— No, wait, is Lex Lang also Alexis Lang?

MEGAN: Yes.

CAITLIN: Yes, okay. You’re right.

MEGAN: There are more than a few non-union aliases in the credits.

CAITLIN: He is credited as both on ANN, because there’s Alexis Lang and then there’s Lex Lang. But yeah, Lex Lang at the time was kind of one of the go-tos for when you want a deeper-voiced anime guy but not quite a Crispin Freeman.

MEGAN: Yeah, I mean, heck, this is when Crispin Freeman was still voicing goofy anime boys and not growly Alucard-style ones.

CAITLIN: I miss Crispin Freeman popping up in these dubs.

MEGAN: [crosstalk] Agreed. But that’s getting off point.

CAITLIN: But anyway—

COLLEEN: I think the only thing I can think of him from is Code Geass. He played a character in Code Geass.

CAITLIN: He was… um…

MEGAN: Jeremiah.

CAITLIN: Jeremiah, yeah! What a great character. Anyway, so, let’s talk about the story so far.

MEGAN: Because a lot happens.

CAITLIN: Yeah, a lot happens in these episodes. Umi gets Selece. Hooray! There’s Caldina.

MEGAN: Boo.

CAITLIN: Caldina— No, I like Caldina.

MEGAN: [Chuckles]

CAITLIN: [Chuckles] She fights them, and then she’s like, “I want to fight for money!” and Fuu’s like, “Yeah, but are you gonna lay down your life?” and Caldina is like, “No… I think I’m gonna go now.” And then she leaves! And that’s it! And she’s friends with Ascot. It’s nice.

MEGAN: And Umi yells at Ascot for, like, “Why are you always risking your friend’s life? What a jerk!” And Ascot takes that very seriously and stops being a bad boy.

CAITLIN: Yes, he becomes a nice boy. Fuu summons Windham.

MEGAN: Yay!

CAITLIN: Yay!

COLLEEN: Whoo!

CAITLIN: But Cephiro is in a really bad shape. There are storms for the first time in their history. I guess they’ve had rain but never storms.

MEGAN: There’s definitely a subtle tonal shift through this part of the show. Like, you realize at the midpoint, there are no more chibis, there are no more blue skies, there are no more fun times.

CAITLIN: No, things are in rough shape. Ferio comes up and Zagato’s right-hand man, Inouva, tries to seduce him as a girl. It’s not gay.

COLLEEN: [Laughs]

CAITLIN: And then it turns out that Inouva is actually an elemental… I don’t want to say “monster,” but he’s a beast, an elemental beast.

MEGAN: He’s basically a Pokémon, lightning type.

CAITLIN: He gives up his humanish form for the sake of Zagato. And then they’re attacked by Lafarga, the captain of Emeraude’s guard, who has been magically hypnotized, is it?

MEGAN: Yes.

CAITLIN: Yeah, he’s out of himself. But he snaps out of it! And then Hikaru summons Rayearth! And they’re all like, “Yay, we can summon Cephiro!”

MEGAN: “Whoo, we now have sick-ass god mechs!”

CAITLIN: Yeah, and they all have cool armor with capes and cool mecha.

MEGAN: Yes! Yes, they have such cool armor! I want to cosplay it so badly. And—

CAITLIN: And then…

MEGAN: And then…

CAITLIN: And then, they fight Zagato! Yay! They beat him.

MEGAN: Yay!

CAITLIN: And then, it turns out that the real reason they were summoned was not to rescue Emeraude. It was because she loved Zagato and she was thinking of him instead of Cephiro, which was causing Cephiro to fall apart. But no one in Cephiro can unseat the Pillar.

MEGAN: And the Pillar cannot kill themselves.

CAITLIN: And the Pillar cannot kill themself. So, it was up to the Magic Knights all along to kill the Pillar. And they do. And it’s very sad.

MEGAN: It is truly one of anime’s greatest betrayals. It is one of the greatest gut punches CLAMP has ever landed.

CAITLIN: Yeah, betrayal to the readers, betrayal to the audience.

MEGAN: And betrayal to the girls, who thought they were on a hero’s journey all along.

CAITLIN: That does, honestly, I think, tie in really nicely to how everyone sees them, and they’re like, “Oh, you guys are kids? Kids do this job?” And their shock and horror isn’t necessarily because they don’t think these teenagers can do it but because these teenagers have been given this horrible duty to do.

COLLEEN: It was also kind of rude that no one said what their actual job was supposed to be, because, yeah, it’s a bad job, but at least they could prepare themselves along the way.

CAITLIN: Yeah! They got all blindsided by it.

MEGAN: That part of it is not common knowledge, but the fact that this is a legend unto itself, that it’s known that the Pillar can summon the Magic Knights, means that this has happened before. This is a cycle, a cycle of tragedy that’s repeated at least once before, because how else did it become a legend?

CAITLIN: Well, see, that’s kinda something that I was thinking about as I was watching, is Cephiro does not really have a great sense of history to it. You know, there’s not really any hint about “Were there previous Pillars?” This is the kind of thing where it can be a legend just because the creators say it’s a legend, because that’s just what the fiction calls for, without really thinking about how they are incorporating that legend into their world. You know, there’s the Pillar who is in charge, but what about the towns? Do they have their own governance? When Caldina pops up in her Osaka dialect, the characters are like, “Is there an equivalent to Osaka here?” But there’s no sense of geography.

MEGAN: Maybe the reason for that is because Cephiro has been written and rewritten countless times before.

CAITLIN: Well, I don’t think it was really thought through, because… CLAMP.

MEGAN: Yeah, as we mentioned before, the pacing was pretty breezy and they didn’t have time to explain these sorts of things or linger too much on it. But now, they kinda have to.

CAITLIN: I mean… Well, and also, this is a fairly early CLAMP work. Their background is in doujinshi. They don’t need to think those things through when you’re doing doujinshi. That stuff has always been kinda created for you. So, this is their first attempt at creating a world, and it feels very teenager, like “I’m gonna put together this world without really thinking about the mechanics of it,” because they’ve always played in other people’s worlds before.

COLLEEN: Yeah, they have a really strong concept but I feel like, for the most part, everything kind of feels empty, it doesn’t feel like there’s people there, really, and then they’ll show people, and I’m like, “Oh, yeah, people live here,” outside of the characters that are our main characters or the main antagonist.

CAITLIN: But the normal people barely exist. They’re even beyond extras. There’s no sense of, like, towns. There’s just kinda random places.

COLLEEN: They really feel like NPCs.

CAITLIN: Yeah, they do. And that does tie into all of the jokes about it being like a video game.

MEGAN: I did like at one point in the sub and, I have to presume, the dub, as well, they actually threw in “It’s dangerous to go alone,” you know, straight out of Legend of Zelda. I like that.

CAITLIN: Was that a meme back then?

MEGAN: I mean, that’s from the original game, and the original game came out in like ‘86.

CAITLIN: I mean, I know it’s from the original game, but I didn’t know that— You know, I didn’t play video games as a child. My parents wouldn’t get me a game system, so I didn’t encounter that line until it was a meme on the internet, and I remember someone holding— Like, it was a picture of someone with a kitten in the palm of their hand. So I didn’t know that was a, like… I’m using “meme” in the classic sense of a widely spread piece of cultural information and not like joke that spreads around on the internet. I didn’t know it was a meme.

MEGAN: Now, admittedly, I’m going off the Discotek release so I can’t compare it right now to the Media Blasters one, so I can’t see if it was there in the original localization or something added later, once it was a meme.

CAITLIN: I’m pretty sure the Crunchyroll ones are the Discotek translation, too. I do have to say these episodes overall, I thought, looked great.

MEGAN: Some of them at the beginning of this stretch were a little dodgy in quality, but it steadily increases as it goes along.

CAITLIN: The one with Inouva becoming the elemental beast looked kind of rough and off model. But overall, I thought these episodes looked better than the first half.

COLLEEN: I would disagree. I thought the first half—

CAITLIN: Really?

COLLEEN: Yeah, I thought the first half looked better, and then I thought the second half, save for maybe the last two episodes, felt like not great quality, or at the very least, they ended up reusing a lot of stuff, more so than the first handful.

CAITLIN: Right. There were a lot of little bits of reused… or just flashbacks that felt like they were tossed in there to kind of make the episode just long enough.

COLLEEN: Oh, my gosh, they were padding so much runtime in these. [Chuckles] I was like, “I don’t even need to be watching this, but I need to also make sure that I’m not missing anything.” But it just felt reused so often. And the second-to-last episode, when they just did a montage of all the characters that they had met along the way, and some of them were only there for an episode, I’m like, “Why do we care about some of these people?”

MEGAN: Yeah, that felt like a clip show without actually being a proper clip show.

CAITLIN: It’s weird because I think the pacing within each episode was kind of awkward but I thought the pacing of the story at this point felt better. There were fewer episodes that I felt were truly unnecessary.

COLLEEN: Yeah, there was no “Hikaru has to save a baby animal” type of episode.

CAITLIN: Because there were a lot of episodes in the first half that were like, sure, they’re making the story feel less frictionless, but at the end of the day they’re not really adding anything to the characters or to the world. But here, I really felt like, strangely, adding more episodes contributed to that sense of urgency, because you can see that things are getting really bad. You know, it’s not like, “Oh, we went to the Selece. Now Mokona’s taking us to Windham! Uh-oh, there’s an enemy here. Fight it, fight it, fight it! We got Windham! Now Mokona’s taking us to Rayearth. Uh-oh, enemy: fight, fight, fight, fight! Now we’re going to Emeraude!” You know. Seeing Cephiro kind of falling apart and the characters’ distress and confusion at what’s going on really drove home how dire the situation is becoming.

MEGAN: It was also a really good stretch of episodes for Ferio. They do a lot towards developing him more as a character and having his own internal conflicts beyond his relationship with Fuu and the Magic Knights. And he’s able to help them without necessarily feeling like, “Here I am saving the day for you silly girls.” It’s good stuff.

CAITLIN: Mm-hm. I did think it was funny when they were talking about all the characters who helped them and they were like, “And Ferio gave us his magic device,” and it’s like, he gave you that so he could flirt with Fuu…

COLLEEN: [Laughs]

CAITLIN: …whenever he felt like it.

MEGAN: Yeah, but he also did things, like that first episode with Caldina, he helped them get out of town while making sure they and nobody else died! I mean, that was a pretty swell move on his part.

COLLEEN: Actually, now that you remind me of that, the one funny thing from that episode was he got stabbed with a knife, and then I thought it was just gonna be like a pillow or something, and he pulls out a metal pan. And I’m just like, “You got stabbed with a knife and there was no large clanging noise?”

[Chuckling]

CAITLIN: The knife went in?

COLLEEN: Yeah. I was just so confused when he pulled out a metal pan. I thought that was so funny.

CAITLIN: He turned a frying pan into a… Fuck, I don’t have a rhyme.

COLLEEN: Oh, I don’t have one either. I was gonna help you out. [Chuckles]

CAITLIN: Damn.

COLLEEN: We also have that plot twist of him being Emeraude’s brother?

MEGAN: Yes. I can’t recall if that’s anime original or not, because in the manga it’s… brief?

CAITLIN: [crosstalk] In the manga, it’s in part two.

MEGAN: Ah.

CAITLIN: He shows up. He’s like, “Yeah, I was Emeraude’s brother.”

COLLEEN: [Chuckles] “Sorry, forgot to mention.”

CAITLIN: “Probably should’ve said that.” So, let’s talk about Caldina for a second.

MEGAN: [crosstalk] Caldina’s fun.

CAITLIN: I like her. So, I do have to say, in the original Tokyopop release, the original original ones that fell apart and had badly lettered Times New Roman font…

MEGAN: Ugh.

CAITLIN: They originally romanized her name as Gardina.

MEGAN: That makes her sound like some sort of fairy.

COLLEEN: That’s a Pokémon.

CAITLIN: Or a town in Orange County, California.

MEGAN: [Chuckles]

CAITLIN: But, yeah, they originally romanized it as Gardina. Not even Cardina. Gardina.

MEGAN: Oh, that Tokyopop quality.

CAITLIN: In the second part, it was Caldina, and little 12-year-old me was very confused. But yeah, I like her. For one thing, ever since I lived in Himeji, my listening comprehension for Kansai accents is better than standard, so I could understand her really well.

MEGAN: The downside of that is I do feel like the whole point of her being very mercenary and being all about the money… isn’t that unto itself a bit of an Osaka stereotype?

CAITLIN: It 100% is. Her being vain, obsessed with money, and kind of self-serving is 100% an Osaka stereotype. But she’s fun!

MEGAN: She is fun.

CAITLIN: She’s fun!

COLLEEN: And I think in the translation on Crunchyroll, because I think I watched her episode subbed, they even call her an Osaka weirdo.

MEGAN: Yes.

COLLEEN: So, they were very much aware of what they were doing.

CAITLIN: [crosstalk] And she’s like, “What the fuck are you talking about?”

MEGAN: But it’s also with her introduction you really start to get the idea that Zagato’s minions are not as evil as they might seem, because she really does not care beyond what she can get paid for. And there’s also something incredibly sweet with how she looks out for Ascot. Literally calls him “little brother” at one point.

CAITLIN: Yeah! I really like her relationship with Ascot, which they have been building since the beginning, because we see her talking to him in early episodes.

MEGAN: Yeah, the different relationship dynamics between the various minions, which is also something borrowed from tokusatsu and Sailor Moon. But it does so much to build up their characters in a limited amount of time. It’s a really smart screenwriting move.

CAITLIN: I really like how she froze Ascot, and the Magic Knights are like, “What are you doing?” And she’s like, “I don’t want him to get traumatized by watching me kill you guys! Come on!”

MEGAN: [Chuckles]

COLLEEN: “I’ll just traumatize him by freezing him, and then he’ll know later!”

CAITLIN: And it didn’t seem like he knew he had been frozen. I don’t know, I thought it was maybe misguided but sweet in its own way. But she’s really only there for one episode.

MEGAN: Two at the most, but yeah, it’s kind of a shame she isn’t around for longer.

CAITLIN: We could’ve spent a little bit more time with Caldina. I think that would have been fine.

MEGAN: She could have been doing stuff on the sidelines.

CAITLIN: I do also really like… Because for manga comparison, Fuu gives her this whole lecture about how she’s here for her friends; and in the anime, she’s like, “I know you want to get paid by Zagato, but do you want to die for Zagato?” and Caldina’s like, “Fuck, no! Good point! Bye!”

MEGAN: [Chuckles] And it definitely stands in contrast to Inouva, who very much wants to serve and die for Zagato.

CAITLIN: Yes, because he is not a beautiful elf man but an elemental beast. I’ll be honest: I did not find Inouva a particularly interesting character.

MEGAN: Part of it… I mean, yeah, he is kinda there to fill some time to get this series up to 20 episodes. But I don’t know. He works as a contrast to some of the other minions as far as how serious his devotion is. And you can’t tell me that Nanase Ohkawa, who did help write a bunch of the screenplays for this show, wasn’t having a bit of fun with his dynamic with Zagato. Like, he very much wants to be Zagato’s dog in every sense of the word. Wink, wink.

[Chuckling]

MEGAN: They knew what they were doing.

CAITLIN: Well, it’s CLAMP.

MEGAN: It is CLAMP!

CAITLIN: It’s CLAMP.

COLLEEN: There’s always some gay undertones. [Chuckles] You can’t read CLAMP and not expect some gay undertones.

CAITLIN: Yeah, and I’ll take that over some of the other undertones they have.

MEGAN: And in fairness, his schemes are… well, at least his original deception scheme was mildly clever, even if the vocal performance was not always up to par. Too bad he kind of played into helping them get Windham, but, you know, that’s just gonna happen.

CAITLIN: Yeah, that’s how it goes when you’re a toku villain.

MEGAN: It’s just a shame that he had an obvious weak point they could hit for massive damage.

[Chuckling]

CAITLIN: That’s how it goes when you’re a JRPG villain.

MEGAN: [Laughs]

COLLEEN: It’s so unfortunate they saw the HP bar above his head. The critical hitbox.

MEGAN: At least there’s more to say about him than there is about Lafarga.

CAITLIN: Seems like a nice dude.

COLLEEN: He did not need to be there. [Chuckles]

CAITLIN: No. But he was there in the manga. They needed a final villain for Rayearth.

MEGAN: Also a way for Hikaru to show off her kendo skills. She’s like, “No, I’m going to fight him like a proper swordsman. No magic!”

CAITLIN: Yeah. And, I mean, that’s neat.

MEGAN: And again, I feel like he could have come back at least once just to support them, I don’t know, hang out with Ferio. I don’t know. Maybe something about that will happen later. Hm, hm, hm.

CAITLIN: So, they get Rayearth, and they go to fight Zagato and Emeraude. Now, let’s talk about some themes and motifs. Let’s dig into that. So, as I was watching the final couple of episodes, I started thinking, “Oh, this is actually really Japanese.”

MEGAN: How so?

CAITLIN: Well, so, there’s a lot of emphasis on what they’re able to achieve through their relationships with others and being part of a group.

Okay, real quick sidebar. I just want to say… This is completely off topic, but it just popped into my head, and, sorry, I’ve got the ADHD. Mokona pulling out the map and then being like— There’s also a lot less Mokona comedy in these episodes. But Mokona pulling out the map and them being like, “Wait, you had that all along?” I’m just like, “Oh, my God. You couldn’t think of what to do. You couldn’t think of how to get them to the next point. So, surprise, Mokona has a map that he was just too lazy to take out.”

COLLEEN: When that popped up, I thought of you. I was like, there’s our deus ex machina!

CAITLIN: And I was just like, god damn it. That’s so fucking stupid.

MEGAN: That’s the narrative convenience of having a being that could just pull anything out of their head if necessary, whenever necessary, and then never do so again.

CAITLIN: [Sighs] Yeah, because it doesn’t become necessary again. [Speaks in singsong] Plot contrivances.

COLLEEN: They needed a map. Mokona had a map. The end. [Chuckles]

MEGAN: They never thought to ask for a map! Gotta ask specifically. It’s like a genie.

CAITLIN: [Sighs] Anyway, so, as I was saying, a lot of emphasis on how they overcame things as part of a group, and none of them individually could do it on their own. Furthermore, Emeraude’s downfall comes because she is no longer able to perform her service to the group. Now, I honestly… I really, really liked that plot twist. I thought it was great. I thought it was unexpected. You know, the plot twist that they are here to kill Princess Emeraude. But still, I noticed that she has abdicated her responsibility because the slightest bit of individuality has overridden her duty to their world, country, whatever. It’s still very hazy, exactly, the nature of how the world works in Cephiro, and Season 2 only makes it more confusing. 

So, yeah, so, she has to… So, she dies! So, her individual desires have overcome her service to the group, and therefore, everything is falling apart because of her selfishness, because of her individuality, and she has to be removed from the situation. She has to be excluded from life. So, that was something that did kinda strike me. And I know, of course, Japanese culture is not like “Death of the individual! We are all cogs within society’s machine!” And also, you don’t see that as much anymore. I think anime has become a lot more individualistic in particular and there’s more room for individualism in Japanese society than, perhaps, when this was made 30 years ago. So old. [Chuckles] But yeah, that kinda jumped out to me. What do you guys think?

MEGAN: I can definitely see where you’re coming from there. Like, it is telling that it’s only the main villain who was the only one willing to call out the unfairness of the system, because why should she have to submit her whole self, her whole mind, her own being, her own free will, her own personal and sometimes literal growth for the sake of the nation?

COLLEEN: I have two thoughts with this, the first being that I find it interesting that this is an isekai with that undertone, theme, running through it, because isekai is so individualistic lately in the current incarnation of it.

CAITLIN: Yeah.

MEGAN: [crosstalk] Just a little bit.

COLLEEN: [Chuckles] So, it is pretty interesting to think about it that way, that this is an isekai and it’s like the complete opposite of what you would think isekai is, where it’s not about just one person getting to do whatever they want and getting to be the best at everything. This is someone who has lost all of their individuality. And then the other ones who come in, they don’t get a choice in what they do. But then the second thing that I think is interesting with that, then, is it could be a decent parallel to being a woman, being femme in society, of “You don’t get to be who you want to be. You have to be this one thing, and if you go outside of that, die.” [Chuckles]

CAITLIN: Yeah, the good wife, wise mother. You have to be a good wife. The model of womanhood is the good wife, wise mother, and if you’re failing to be a good wife and a wise mother, you’re failing the country.

COLLEEN: Yeah. Yeah. And I do kind of wish, because of that, we got more about Emeraude within this. Like, I wouldn’t have minded some more Emeraude episodes, because we just don’t get enough of… Like, I like the plot twist. At times, I think it wasn’t deserved because I feel like we didn’t get enough leaning into it.

CAITLIN: She’s such a cipher. She doesn’t do anything but sit in her flower and cry.

COLLEEN: Yeah. And I wish we had more about her if we were gonna get that plot twist, if they knew they wanted to do that plot twist the whole time.

MEGAN: Yeah, it’s weird to say, but I kind of wish we had more flashbacks of her. The ones we have with Ferio certainly help, but [I wish we had] more people’s perspectives on her and their relationships with her and their understanding of her.

CAITLIN: Yeah, or her relationship with Zagato. Everyone’s just like, “Yeah, he just all of a sudden kidnapped her.” Getting hints of, like, they were getting close. They were so close! They were getting close.

MEGAN: And admittedly, there have been hints about Zagato’s feelings throughout the show, small but subtle ones until they really start laying it on thick in the last few.

CAITLIN: Yeah, and also [that] you are summoned with others and they are your dyed-in-the-wool allies is another thing that stands in contrast to modern isekai and kind of highlights the group of Rayearth versus the individualism of modern isekai, because in modern isekai, when they are summoned as a group, everyone wants to fuck over the protagonist.

MEGAN: Or they just want to fuck the protagonist.

COLLEEN: [Laughs]

CAITLIN: No! Generally, they want to… Well, occasionally, but usually they want to fuck over the protagonist, especially if it’s a mixed-sex or same-sex group. Like, the classic example is, of course, Shield Hero.

MEGAN: Mm. Or even KonoSuba, although that takes more of a comic bent.

CAITLIN: I haven’t watched KonoSuba. Don’t particularly want to, but… Yeah, I thought that was… that’s an interesting kind of difference. And ‘90s isekai was varied enough that I don’t think there is a super strong pattern to talk about with, like, whether people summoned together are allies or enemies. You know, you had El-Hazard, where it was a mix; you had Fushigi Yugi, which was complicated.

MEGAN: [Chuckles]

CAITLIN: But in modern ones, pretty much, it’s like everyone wants to fuck over the protagonist, all those bastards, so he has to learn how to go and strike out on his own and show them all.

MEGAN: Or in the case of the female-led ones, everyone is against you, including the people who supposedly loved you and wanted to marry you. And now it’s like you and maybe some others against the world.

CAITLIN: Yeah, I mean, it ties very strongly into the otaku-ization of anime and manga and isekai and the different perspectives that people are bringing to them. But also, it’s a tragedy. You know, Magic Knight Rayearth is not saying, “This is good and right that Emeraude has to die.” It’s tragic that she cannot be herself and also the Pillar. And we’ve got a whole other half of a series to go, you know?

Let’s talk a little bit about the signifiers around girlhood and innocence and womanhood. I think there’s a lot of really interesting stuff happening with some of the character design choices.

MEGAN: Like Emeraude?

CAITLIN: Yeah! Like Emeraude. But also Alcione and Caldina, they are scantily clad, they wear makeup, they are visibly women.

MEGAN: They are vain.

CAITLIN: They are vain. You know, they’re antagonistic to these young, pubescent girls in their school uniforms. Even their armor is over their school uniforms. You know, they are wearing signifiers of their youth. You know, and that is a very classic shoujo trope. Girlhood, which the audience is more aligned with, is more innocent, is more carefree. It is good. It is inherently virtuous to be young and innocent. And when you get older, you become sexualized and you lose that innocence, you lose that purity, and you become a villain.

MEGAN: And, coming back to your previous point, you start having desires that are selfish. You want things for yourself.

CAITLIN: You might want to fuck.

MEGAN: You might want to keep another person for yourself. I mean, that’s the selfishness of Zagato. Like, he was willing to literally destroy the world if he could just keep the woman he loved alive.

COLLEEN: And I also see it as kind of like how young girls view adulthood or becoming an adult, because… for Hikaru, at the very least, she was a tomboy. We didn’t get to see her in any other clothes other than her uniform, but they all say, “Oh, you’re a tomboy. You grew up with brothers.” And there’s, like, that demonization.

CAITLIN: [crosstalk] Oh, she grew up with brothers. You can never have a tomboy that’s just [like] that’s who she is. It’s always because she has brothers.

COLLEEN: Or their dad was their only parent.

CAITLIN: Yeah. Ugh. I’m rolling my eyes. I’m rolling my eyes.

COLLEEN: Like, not demonization, I guess, but you don’t want to grow up and be different and be that stereotypical woman. Like, you want to stay as yourself, but there’s that idea of womanhood that society puts on you. I think there’s also a lot of that. I mean, especially in shoujo because it is such a popular trope. But I do think it’s also… While I think they kind of demonize womanhood by making the antagonists sexy ladies, they also kinda show how scary it is to go into that for young girls, too. So, I think it’s a funny contrast because you could view it either way and one way is a little more like, “Oh, yeah, I felt like that,” [and] the other way is kind of like, “Oh, why do we view women this way?”

MEGAN: It should be noted there is one notable exception: Presea, who is an adult woman and even a little vain herself, but she’s not… Her outfit is not as sexualized as someone like Alcione’s.

CAITLIN: She keeps her titties covered.

MEGAN: Except when she’s doing her liturgical dance.

CAITLIN: But even that is more ethereal.

MEGAN: But she is still a good guy. She is still an ally to the Magic Knights.

COLLEEN: And for that, she must die. [Chuckles]

CAITLIN: Yes. There’s no good reason to kill Presea. I’m sorry. I know it was to show that this conflict has stakes, but there is… it was just… [Grunts irritably]

COLLEEN: I did think it was funny that later in the season they were like, “Oh, yeah, Presea died. Oh, wasn’t that sad?” because they didn’t do that when she did die!

CAITLIN: Yeah, they move on real fast.

MEGAN: I don’t know, Hikaru still remembers.

COLLEEN: [crosstalk] So then they had a little… It was very funny.

MEGAN: But yeah, it never quite sat well with me that Emeraude is this perfect, innocent little girlish thing until Zagato dies, and then she turns evil and she becomes an adult and gets a really kickass villainess outfit.

CAITLIN: It is a really cool villainess outfit. It’s a cool mech, too.

MEGAN: Oh, yeah. I gotta speak out on this because, you know me, I like to pick around in the credits, and also because I love sick-ass mecha designs. I have to shout out a guy named Masahiro Yamane. He is the mechanical designer for the show. He’s also one of the key animators. So, you know, he’s the one in charge of adapting whatever CLAMP drew to animation. He’s got a long history with mecha anime. Previous to this, he was best known for working on the Brave series, which were a bunch of kid-friendly mecha shows that Sunrise made in the early ‘90s, stuff like J-Decker and Might Gaine. GaoGaiGar is probably the best-known one, but that would still be a few years ahead. And he also did kinda have a… He had worked previously with people like Toshiki Hirano and Masami Obari, so that’s likely how he got involved with this project in the first place, and he would go on, even now, to keep working on mecha, usually more as a key animator or an animation director or animating OPs. So, he would work on Escaflowne, he’d work on Tekkaman Blade, Scryed, Iron-Blooded Orphans, most of the Gundam Build Fighters and Build Divers shows, Gravion, Code Geass…

CAITLIN: That’s some iconic mecha design. And a lot of those are originals.

MEGAN: I should note this is pretty much one of his only mechanical design credits. Most of those others are as key animators, animation directors, or working on the OP.

CAITLIN: I see. Interesting. Well, and I’m not saying that it is easy to translate manga mecha into animation, because it’s not. You have to think about how things move. But he was translating CLAMP’s designs. You know, he’s one of the guys who knows how to do anime mechs, and they’re a dying breed.

MEGAN: Yes, they are. And yeah, so I just have to shout him out and say that he did a really good job here. And particularly, I think a lot of the later mechs, I can’t call clearly what Zagato’s and Emeraude’s Rune God suit designs were, but those are incredibly sick, and the way they’re framed with all the dark lighting and lightning and whatnot is also equally sick. Just ah! As someone who loves mech anime, I was just… I was in absolute heaven.

CAITLIN: Alright. But anyway, so, yeah, that loss of innocence is laid so bare with Emeraude’s transformation when Zagato dies. You know, the sadness and the tragedy forces her to become a woman, and she becomes an antagonist. And she’s taller, her features become more angular, she has big boobs…

[Chuckling]

CAITLIN: You know? Listen, there was an angle where I was like, “Oh, damn, she’s…”

MEGAN: As does her robot!

CAITLIN: Yeah, her robot has titties, even.

COLLEEN: Her robot’s, like, a little sexy. [Chuckles] It’s got those hips. [Chuckles]

CAITLIN: Yeah, whereas the Rune Gods are very gender neutral in their design. And they have very masculine voices.

MEGAN: But even then, the original Emeraude is still inside her. It almost reminds me of Utena with Dios and Akio. Like, she’s still in there! Like she is the spirit of Emeraude’s goodness. Like, “No, no! You have to stop this! You have to kill me now before it’s too late!”

CAITLIN: RIP.

[Chuckling]

COLLEEN: RIP!

MEGAN: But it’s also a bit of a tragedy in her own… At any point, she could have just admitted that she loved Zagato, before he actually died. And part of the reason that they went on this fetch quest in the first place is not that he stole her away; it’s that she shut herself away, and Zagato is basically standing guard because she did not want to acknowledge these feelings! And she’s like, “If I just seal myself away from the world and pray even harder, it will go away.”

CAITLIN: That’s not… how it went.

MEGAN: I mean, it’s a romantic tragedy, but it’s a tragedy that they both had a hand in.

CAITLIN: Mm-hm. And she says, “Zagato, I’m finally yours and yours alone.” She had to die to be able to live her desires. I kind of wanted to— But Emeraude and Zagato is not the only romance in this show.

MEGAN: True.

CAITLIN: You know, there’s also Fuu and Ferio.

COLLEEN: And let’s not forget Hikaru and Umi. [Chuckles]

[Laughter]

COLLEEN: They had some cute moments, okay?

CAITLIN: I’m sorry. I’m sorry. I’ve got my own Hikaru ship that I’m going to yell about later.

COLLEEN: [Chuckles] Okay. Fuu and Ferio.

CAITLIN: But yeah, Fuu and Ferio, where it is a more innocent romance. There’s not really any… There’s flirtation but there’s not really any element of desire to it.

MEGAN: They never even so much as kiss.

CAITLIN: No. He kisses her on the hand one time. But there’s no… you know, there’s no physicality to it. It’s just… They’ve got, you know, like, baby’s first internet relationship.

[Laughter]

COLLEEN: Oh, no, I feel called out.

CAITLIN: They’re flirting through his little electronic device.

COLLEEN: They’re on AIM Messenger.

[Laughter]

COLLEEN: They’re like, “ILY.”

CAITLIN: They’re staying up late, typing…

[Chuckling]

COLLEEN: Oh, flashbacks.

CAITLIN: Oh, yeah, God. [Sighs] [Assumes a broad Southern accent] In my day… [Returns to normal voice] But yeah, so, they are also working together towards a common goal, for the good of Cephiro.

MEGAN: And they are communicating with one another, literally through the magic pod devices, but also they’re communicating more honestly about their feelings, like when Inouva tries to trick Ferio with his Sera guys and Fuu gets a bit jealous over it. But afterwards, they talk it out, they resolve it.

CAITLIN: Yeah, so it is a more… I want to say it’s almost, like, conceptual. You know, Magic Knight Rayearth is aimed at elementary school girls who are, at their oldest, just kinda starting to figure out these kinds of feelings. I think there is a very real fear of being turned into a woman, that fear of sex, so Fuu and Ferio’s relationship is very sexless.

COLLEEN: And I think with Ferio being Emeraude’s brother, that’s another good contrast in that regard, of him being kind of like, “No, I’m gonna separate myself from you because it’s not good to be together, because what if something happens,” and Emeraude is like, “I’m gonna separate myself from you because I cannot handle this, and I will fix everything, and I will not talk to you.”

MEGAN: That’s a good point. Whether it’s friendship, romance, or fighting against evil in a fantasy world, it all comes down to good communication.

COLLEEN: We all just gotta talk about our feelings and the will of our hearts.

CAITLIN: That’s right.

MEGAN: And it’ll make the world a better place. Or it might wreck it. [Chuckles]

CAITLIN: Alright, so, we’re coming up on the hour. Any final points?

COLLEEN: Taking Hikaru and Umi ship to the grave.

CAITLIN: I have a final point.

COLLEEN: [Laughs]

CAITLIN: That just popped back into my head that I’ve been holding on to for a little bit. So, once again, this is another “contrasting the anime and the manga” point. This is a point in the manga’s favor. At the end of the anime, when they’re back at Tokyo Tower, Hikaru gives this whole speech about how she wants to go back and help them.

MEGAN: “Speech” is a bit generous, but she does state that out loud.

CAITLIN: Yeah, well, but she says… You know, she makes a statement. In the manga, it is just this raw cry of grief saying, “It’s not fair.” And I honestly think that is so much more powerful.

MEGAN: Yeah. Yeah, when you phrase it like that, just leave ‘em that initial wave of grief. Don’t even give them that much time to process it.

CAITLIN: Mm-hm. And that’s it. And that’s the end of the story. I think Magic Knight— That was originally planned to be the end of Magic Knight Rayearth.

COLLEEN: I wonder if the editors were like, “No, you can’t do that. These are for young kids. You can’t do that.”

CAITLIN: I think it’s documented exactly how that happened. I’ll have to look it up.

COLLEEN: Yeah, I’m interested. I’m interested.

CAITLIN: We’ll talk about it next episode. So, shall I play us out?

MEGAN: Go ahead.

CAITLIN: Alright. So, thank you so much for joining us on this rewatchalong, AniFam. We haven’t talked about how many episodes we want to cover for the next episode, so we’ll get back to you on that. But if you liked this, you can always find all of our stuff on our Linktree, linktr.ee at animefeminist. Or you can go find our store at animefeminist.com/store, where we have lots of cool merch, including our logo, exhorting people to watch more shoujo, or being a cute trans magical girl, boy or guardian, gender-neutral guardian.

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MEGAN: Yay!